GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and welcome to the High-Yield Tourism Podcast. I’m Gary Bowerman. On today’s show, we’re going to be discussing the challenges of marketing authentic experiences in tourism. So, let’s get started. This is the High-Yield Tourism Podcast.

GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and welcome to the High-Yield Tourism Podcast. On today’s show, Dr. Jens Traenhart and I are going to discuss the challenges around authentic experiences marketing. So, Jens, I would say from the tourism conferences of the first half of the year, one of the most discussed topics was authentic experiences in travel and tourism. Now this term, authentic experiences, tends to get thrown around a little bit like confetti. It’s a real catch-all term. It is used within the industry with purpose at times, but sometimes it just has this sort of catch-all meaning. Is the problem with authentic experiences that it is ill-defined, or is it that it’s actually losing its sense of purpose?

JENS THRAENHART
Yeah. Hi, Gary. So, I mean, it’s great to be back. And I think this is a real interesting topic because, obviously, when we travel, we crave for authenticity, right? We want to have these untouched communities. We want to have the real traditions. We want to connect with local people. We want to have the cuisine of a destination. But what if authenticity is manipulated if it becomes staged, right? And my question to you would be, if that is the case, and we have obviously lots of examples where you go to cultural shows and they feel Disney-fied, can it actually destroy the destination brand?

GARY BOWERMAN
Well, that’s a good question. I think there are a couple of points that I would start here with, Jens. I think one is that at times the travel industry and destinations… define authenticity, and the presentation of authenticity is probably a little bit different than that of travelers themselves. I think they talk a little bit of a dislocated language. I don’t think travelers really think about authenticity. They think more about meaning and the experience that gives them a gateway into a culture or a gateway into learning more about the destination. But authenticity is a very subjective term. I think that’s one of the problems. Even if you look it up in the dictionary, Jens, there are various definitions from a theme of originality or not being counterfeit. But there’s sort of a lot of wiggle room in the middle. So, what is authenticity? Going back to your point about whether it can actually damage a destination, I think the other thing when we’re talking about creating a marketing strategy for a destination is that authenticity is very subjective to the destination, whether that’s a country, a region, a city, or a small town. The authenticity factors are really, really location-specific, culture-specific, and cuisine-specific, as you mentioned. So one of the challenges I think that in conference programming terms that you have is when you use authentic experiences, when you throw this term around a little bit like confetti, when it lands, it’s lots of different colors, it’s lots of different shapes, and some of those just get swept away. And I think that is the problem with this at the moment, is that… Where does it go next? And I said to you at the beginning, it’s a little bit ill-defined. Is it losing its sense of purpose? Of course, there is value in authenticity. But as you said to me off air, there are many, many different types of authenticity in terms of nature tourism, man-made tourism, urban tourism, and coastal tourism. I think that’s going to be the challenge of using one catch-all umbrella term.

JENS THRAENHART
Yes, I agree. And I like what you just said in terms of authenticity being subjective. That obviously creates meaning because I have certain expectations when I go to a destination that I want to experience.

But the danger I see is if that meaning is lost, when traditions are adapted for visitors, when they are forced or manipulated. And there are two dangers in this, as I see it. One is obviously the destination brand, because people go back and say, well, you know what, it wasn’t what I expected, and they may go on social media, et cetera, et cetera, and so on. So what has been promoted as a vision for a destination may then be reduced because the expectations are not fulfilled. On the other hand, these kind of handmade, authentic, staged experiences, many times not valuable for the local people, you know, so I mean, because this is not really where this may not benefit the local communities, but this is then basically staged a cultural show and it’s owned by, you know, some big businessmen and so on. So those are the two dangers there. But I think, you know, in the end, if authenticity is done right, you know. I think it can be very powerful and it can actually drive sustainability and driving economic value to the communities. So heritage tourism, cultural tourism, you know, can uplift communities and can really drive value for destinations and also in a way protect the heritage and the culture of a destination. So it can on one way, it can be negative if greed takes over. Or it can be positive if it is done right and really done in terms of protecting the real assets of the destination.

GARY BOWERMAN
Right. So where we are at Jens in 2025, I’m going to throw at you four different segments in the travel industry where I think it’s quite difficult to use the term authentic experiences. Let me see what you think. So probably we live in Asia Pacific. One of the hottest topics. in the region for destinations and for travelers at the moment is concert tourism. Another very, very hot topic is film and TV, set jetting. Another very, very lucrative part of the industry is cruising. And another, particularly in destinations like China, are theme parks. Now, when you’re creating your marketing plan for the destinations that are involved in any of those activities, do you look at the authentic angle? Or do you promote those separately? You don’t use the word authentic. You promote those on the basis of their own merits and their own USPs.

JENS THRAENHART
Well, that’s an interesting question, Gary. So I think there are a couple of things. So the first thing is, you know, around 10 years ago, I was on a conference panel and it was actually about authentic travel. So the discussion is not really anything new. When I was on the panel and I was talking about all that stuff that we talked about, yes, you know, authenticity about community tourism and connecting with local people and the culture and the heritage, et cetera. The moderator asked me a question that stuck in my mind until today. He said, Jens, great. You know, let me ask you, do you think that Disneyland is authentic? I was taken aback because. I didn’t expect that because normally when we think about authenticity, we think about heritage, culture, communities, etc. But we don’t think about man-made authenticity. I don’t know if that even exists. But my answer was, well, I think for someone who expects a Disney experience, Disneyland is authentic. And he said, you’re right. Disneyland or Disney World and Disney theme parks have created authentic experiences. And they’re consistent with the delivery of that in terms of how they train their staff or their actors, how they call them. So it’s interesting. So, going back to your question, I think there are a couple of things. Let’s start with concerts. A couple of concerts. I mean, you have, let’s say, the local… festival, concert, and so on, which is part of the community that is authentic because it has been going on for years, and so on. And then you have, let’s say, the imported rock star that’s coming in, and we’ve seen it in Singapore and all over the world, where you have big concerts that draw many crowds there. I think that the question there is, well, I don’t think that is authentic. An imported attraction that will drive visitation. However, what you can do is leverage that draw of visitors to introduce people to the authenticity of a destination. So I’ll give you one example. So when the Vancouver Olympics were held in 2010 in Canada, they also created an organization called Legacy 2010. So in the end, it was developed to leverage the Olympic Games, the Winter Games in Vancouver, to ensure that it also benefits the communities, residents, and the economy. So it’s not just about the games and then it finishes and everything goes back to normal. Saudi Arabia now obviously has a lot of events. You know, coming up, you know, biggest one, FIFA 2034, Expo 2030. So the question is also, you know, how do you actually become a host destination? How you become a host city and then make sure that it’s not just about hosting the event, but also hosting the visitors to making sure that you can make them. fans or even ambassadors of the destination. So someone may say, well, I’ve never thought about going to Saudi Arabia. Maybe even I had a negative impression of going to Saudi Arabia, but because there’s FIFA, I’m going to go. And then, you know, you experience Saudi Arabia if it is connected and if it’s done in a very good manner, then actually… You may think, OK, I didn’t think about Saudi Arabia as a destination. I may stay longer, or I may come back. You know, I talked to people who went to the FIFA in Qatar. And while Qatar is obviously a whole different destination and it’s very small, everyone who went there said, Wow, Qatar did an amazing job in hosting people while they were there. It was very easy to get in and out. and to experience the destination, and I would come back. So going back to your question, I think these kinds of events are an opportunity to introduce the authenticity of a destination. And just to touch on the other one you mentioned, a cruise. So when I was the CEO of Barbados Tourism, a lot of travelers came via cruise, and many didn’t even leave the ship. They often just stay on board and enjoy the amenities, the pool, the bars, the restaurants, and so on. And that’s also the intention of the cruise line. They want to increase their revenue by having people stay on board. But obviously for a destination, there’s an opportunity while people are only there for maybe three, four, five, six, seven, eight hours, maybe not even overnight, to give them a glimpse of the destination, get them a taste of the culture, and then have them inspired to come back when the cruise ends and when they’re looking at their new vacation.

GARY BOWERMAN
Going back to the concert tourism or the big events tourism, as you said, I think the FIFA World Cups are slightly different just because of the huge volumes of people that come in for that event and tend to be spread around the country, or F1 in Singapore. You basically use them as an activation. You use them as a platform to leverage other aspects of the destination. Totally agree with that. There was a good interview I read earlier this year in the Chinese media, with a young woman who traveled solo. Solo travel is an important aspect of authenticity, I think, because I think solo travelers have their own views of what the meaning is to them when they travel. This woman wanted to go to Singapore. I think she was from Guangzhou. She wanted to go to Singapore for a concert earlier in the year, but she found that with her budget, the flight to Singapore and the hotel costs in Singapore were a little bit too expensive. So instead, she took a flight to KL from Guangzhou, rented a car, spent two days driving south through Malaysia, enjoying the scenery, the cultures, the cuisine, then got to Singapore in time for a concert, dropped off her car, enjoyed the concert, and then flew home. The way that young people think about travel now, particularly self-drive travel, is such a hot topic in the region that you can actually leverage that around the experience. I mean, in this case, actually, it was the neighboring country, Malaysia, that benefited rather than Singapore. But in a bigger country, you have that opportunity to leverage the regional locations around the city that’s hosting the event. I think some countries do that quite well. Japan does that really, really well. China does that quite well in terms of leveraging the broader canvas for a single event. I think that’s where authenticity comes in. The actual event itself, if you’re going to see, I don’t know whether it’s Taylor Swift or Blackpink or Bruno Mars, whoever it is, you’re going to find your own meaning in that concert. You’re in that event venue for your own purposes. You could be anywhere in the world. I think the interesting thing about Singapore last year is that when they hosted Taylor Swift, they had exclusivity in the region for her concerts. People went to that concert. It wasn’t because it was Singapore, because that’s the only place that you could see her. So that’s a smart move from the Singapore Tourism Board, getting that exclusivity. But it doesn’t really mean that people travel to Singapore specifically. They travel to see Taylor Swift.

JENS THRAENHART
Obviously, I mean, these kinds of activations are very, very powerful. And they cost the Tourism Board a lot of money to put them together. But I think it has been very beneficial for Singapore in this case. Let’s maybe step back and say, okay, well, you know what? I believe it’s almost like authenticity. Because, you know, now if tourism boards are looking like, okay, great, I got to do my marketing strategy. I have to do my marketing plan for next year. We want to position ourselves as an authentic destination. You know, what do I do to go forward? Now I see the challenges, you know, obviously we don’t want to stage authenticity. That’s not our intention. We don’t want to push local people away or that local people almost become a theme park in itself. For me personally, I think authenticity is not a product; it’s a relationship. When you believe you’ve had an authentic experience, yes, you may have an experience that’s connected to local culture and heritage and so on. And maybe it’s connected to the expectations that you’ve had. you know, before you went there. But I think in the end, it probably, you had very powerful human connections that then made you feel that this experience was authentic. And I think one thing that sometimes overlooked is the power of frontline staff and tour guides in facilitating authenticity. Because we’re sometimes just looking at the product. And as I said, authenticity is not a product, but it’s facilitating these relationships. And if the frontline staff can facilitate these human connections, or if it doesn’t happen, even though you have the culture and the heritage and all of that in place, you still may not feel that it is authentic. So I think, you know, now as tourism boards may say like, OK, what do we do? How do we actually make sure that we become an authentic destination, that we have authentic experiences and in the end also drive high yield tourism, you know, in order to have people stay longer, spend more money, you know, and spend the money in local communities, et cetera, et cetera. And I think, you know, the frontline staff, the tour guides, are an important component to do that. And that’s sometimes overlooked.

GARY BOWERMAN
Well, I agree with you generally, but there was a very famous comment by the CEO of one of the Chinese OTAs last year. And he said that what they find, particularly with younger Chinese tourists who are born in the 2000s, is that they don’t want to talk to anybody. They don’t want any engagement whatsoever. They only want the experience they have when they find it, and they will find it digitally and then enjoy it for themselves. They actually don’t want any human connection. I mean, we are moving towards a generation that does think that way. You look at the hotel industry now, Jens. I mean, the hotel industry, even in the last five years, has changed considerably. There are a lot of mid-range. brands that we know their names, quite famous hotels, you turn up as a business traveler, and there’s nobody there to greet you. There’s no concierge anymore. They charge you for an umbrella. These kinds of things are taking away that personal experience side of things. And you basically are just renting a space in their building. So there is this kind of duopoly, I think, where there is a need from some people who want more authentic, humanistic, cultural engaged experiences and some people who are prepared to just say hang on I don’t want that. They just want a place to stay and then want to go and find it all that they will use through social media or ai tool trip planning tools and let them do it themselves and then take a photo put on Instagram or TikTok and feel like they had an authentic experience. But then, you know, the interesting thing about that is, if you’re a destination or you’re a hotel brand or you’re a travel provider, what is the ultimate arbiter of authenticity? How do you know that what you’ve created is actually authentic? Is it now, as you said, user-generated content? Is that the ultimate arbiter of authenticity?

JENS THRAENHART
I’m not sure. But I think when you look at, obviously, DMCs, create travel experiences on the ground, the good ones and the ones that are successful and the ones that charge more money, they focus on having top tour guides. You know, I mean, if you look at Mei Zhang with Wild China, very successful and her tour guides, they built these human connections. They even have their own, you know, blogs, you know, even. over 10 years ago that talk about, you know, where they come from, you know, they live in the village and sometimes they even visit their grandmother on their tour. And so it is all about these human connections. And while obviously there’s a shift in people, especially younger generations being more on the phone, I think there’s also now this whole concept of IRL in real life where people still, you know, want to go back to that. So I think, yes. It is what it is. But I think if you want to have an authentic experience, then I think, you know, you’re probably looking to, you know, put down your phone to have that experience. So even though if I’m still going to the restaurant and I have my phone right there and I maybe scroll down, whatever, as people do, you know, I want when the waiter comes, you know, to have, you know, some kind of interaction that feels authentic. You know, and feels human. So I think that is still an important point. But I think another important point is in going back to, you know, what can tourism boards do when they do their marketing planning? And if authenticity is at the heart or the core of their strategy, I think it’s also looking at what we call micro-niches, because I think people that are focused on a specific passion, for them that passion and that delivery of that experience is authentic. So if I’m a birdwatcher or a stargazer and I go to a destination that delivers a top-notch micro-niche experience, stargazing experience, birdwatching experience, that will be an authentic experience for me.

GARY BOWERMAN
Which ultimately comes back to a lot of what we were saying last week. It really comes down to multiple segmentation within your markets. And then at the same time, looking at what your destination actually stands for and what it is that you want to present to these different segments. But I think this proliferation of segments is a challenge. I think it’s definitely a challenge because there’s just such polarization. I mean, we were talking just a moment ago and you were saying, The companies, the specialist companies that do specialize in very, very personalized, tailored tours where you do get access to places that you otherwise wouldn’t get to, experiences and locations that you just wouldn’t be able to reach otherwise in an informal way. And then somebody who turns up in a city like Barcelona or Bangkok or Paris or Melbourne, wherever it is, with their mobile phone says, I’m going to do this myself. As a tourism board, you’ve got to market to all of those people. You’ve got to present a city or a destination or a country that is a cross -segment. That’s where I think it’s just becoming so challenging because there’s just this proliferation of wants, needs, and you used the good term expectations. We all have different expectations because we’ve all learned from social media that every destination we go to has these different options, whereas before we often turned up a little bit unknowing. We didn’t really know what to expect, and that was the mystery and the magic of tourism. really in the older days, I’m probably dating myself a little bit, was you entering the unknown. Whereas today, it’s very meticulously planned.

JENS THRAENHART
True. And I think this is also when we kind of started, you know, coining this term around high-yield tourism, and we developed these various economic models around EBITDA and our 3Q models. In the end, we quickly realized that the solution lies in the optimization of the source markets and the segments within. And this will also then drive authenticity because if you know who your core source markets are and who your core segments are, especially when it goes down to micro niches, you need to be sure that you have the products and the services in place. And that also translates into not having more and more visitors, but having the right visitors coming to your destination that spend more money, that appreciate the authenticity, to use that word, of the destination, and become your ambassador. But if you don’t understand how to optimize your source markets and your segmentations within, and it is very complex, you need to look at so many indicators and you need to build these complex models. to make sure that you can actually do that. But if you do that, I think a lot of things will fall into place.

GARY BOWERMAN
From the work that you do, if you go back to pre-pandemic and post-pandemic, do you think the concept of authenticity has changed in the way that destinations think about it, the way that they promote it? Or do you think it’s become more ubiquitous? What does authenticity in tourism marketing mean today compared to, say, 2019, before the pandemic?

JENS THRAENHART
Well, that would be an interesting study. I think, you know, the first question I would have is, what do consumers think about authenticity? What do they expect when they want to book an authentic travel experience? I would probably say most of the time it is connected to the culture and heritage of a destination, the cuisine, and the handicrafts. You’re bringing back a souvenir that kind of is that memorabilia from that authentic experience. So I think that’s why the souvenir part is also an important component to that, which, again, drives more high-yield into the destination if done right. So I think, again, it is very subjective. And that’s, again, why it is so important to understand your source markets, understand your segments, and what their expectations are. And then I think the other thing that becomes very important is that people have done their 10-year marketing strategy, then maybe a five-year marketing strategy. I’ve seen now destinations that maybe do a one-year marketing strategy. The question is, well, is it changing all the time? Maybe you want to have a dashboard. where you can maybe then have all your source markets in there, with the different indicators. But then if there is a, you know, conflict somewhere in the world, and it kind of impacts air connectivity, or oil prices go down or up, or there are other situations in the world that are external factors that we cannot control, but that impact travel, that that is immediately factored in. We just live in such a volatile world with fast-changing consumer preferences, also driven by AI and digital transformation, that I think we always need to be able to optimize our target consumers on the go.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, absolutely. Certainly, technology is changing and is reshaping the way that people engage with content, with travel experiences, with destinations. I would say the biggest change, particularly in Asia Pacific, over the last five or six years in terms of authenticity and experiences, is simply the greater availability and ubiquity of experiences. I mean, if you go back 20 years, I mean, Viator is always the case study of one of the first companies that were selling online experiences, tours, adventures. In Asia, the first one really to do it, probably on a scale for Asian tourists or for Asian travelers was Klook. And that was 10 or 11 years ago. But if you look at the influence that those platforms had, which started primarily as experiences platforms. They have driven the way that OTAs operate now. OTAs really only used to offer flights, hotels, maybe a car rental, not much more. But now they’re all moving increasingly down the experiences platform route. Airbnb is now on its third iteration of trying to offer experiences. So, experience is just more available. And that means the more choice that people have, the more discerning they become, and their views and their perceptions of authenticity change. They are going to be much harsher on experiences that they find and they purchase if they don’t like them. And you mentioned to me earlier about, you know, at what point can authenticity actually have a damaging reputation on your destination? And that’s simple. If somebody doesn’t like an experience that they have, they’ve chosen, they’ve paid for, and they post that on social media, it’s hard to erase that.

JENS THRAENHART
It’s a great point. And, you know, for example, GetYourGuide in Europe. German-based company, I mean, I think they created their own signature experiences too. And I think the curation of that is a whole different component that we didn’t really discuss today. But when I was heading Mekong Tourism, we created the Experience Mekong Collection, which was a curation of over 300 small and micro-sized businesses and social enterprises that deliver authentic, responsible travel experiences. And people loved it because it was a platform that not only helped these small businesses or micro businesses to get to market, you know, because they don’t have the scale. But on the other hand, it also allowed for travelers and even DMCs and media companies to have a ready-made curation with almost like a label on it that this is being deemed, and I say deemed, as authentic. So again, I think get your guide, try to do something similar with their signature experiences.

GARY BOWERMAN
It’s almost a case of now stepping back a little bit from that term, authentic, and looking more closely at the popularity of things like man-made tourism, of theme park tourism, of film and TV, and popular culture-driven tourism, which don’t have in some ways, that authentic stamp that you would traditionally associate with a destination. For example, if you look at Labubu’s, Labubu’s are everywhere. This pop mart company from China, they are opening the largest pop mart experience center in Singapore. They’ve been doing some large activations in Macau recently. Now, this is a Chinese concept. And it’s being used to promote tourism in Singapore and Macau. I’m sure it will go around Southeast Asia, and there’ll probably be a movie franchise. But this is a really popular way to energize tourism from that perspective. It’s not going to be authentic to local destinations, but there will be Labubu theme parks. These are going to happen in the same way that with Mickey Mouse 40, 50 years ago. So there is authenticity, as you said, in Disney or Labubu or whatever. It is at a different level from that kind of traditional authenticity that we think about, as you said, cuisine or local dance or local ethnic cultures, those kinds of things. Broaden the sphere of authenticity, that’s what I would say.

JENS THRAENHART
I think it’s a fascinating concept, and it is obviously a buzzword right now. But I believe that… As I just mentioned before, I think the core solution in helping people with authenticity is understanding your customer, optimizing your source markets and your segments, and making sure that you’re flexible enough to adapt quickly to changing environments.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, I think we will revisit this conversation in a few months because I think it’s a very dynamic and… continuous conversation about where authenticity goes in the future, Jens. There’ll be much more for us to talk about, even three or six months down the line. Until next week, I look forward to joining you again.

JENS THRAENHART
Thank you, Gary.