GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and welcome to the High-Yield Tourism Podcast. I’m Gary Bowerman. On today’s show, I’ll be discussing the tourism development challenges faced by Indonesia, Asia’s fifth largest economy, the world’s largest archipelago nation, and home to the planet’s fourth largest population. Joining me will be Bali-based tourism professional Nur Wulan T. So let’s get started. This is High-Yield Tourism.

GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and thanks for listening in. Today it’s my pleasure to welcome to the show Bali-based tourism professional Nur Wulan T. Wulan has worked for several leading names in regional travel and technology such as Garuda, Traveloka, Tiga.com, Oyo and STAAH and she’s a regular conference speaker on travel, tourism and hospitality issues in Indonesia. So Wulan, thanks for coming on to the show. How are you doing and where are you today?

NUR WULAN T
All right. I’m doing well. Thank you, Gary. Right now, I’m in Bali, where I’ve been based while working across the tourism and hospitality space. There is a lot of shifting here, I would say, after the past pandemic and some progress, some pressures have been revealed.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, plenty to talk about in Bali and broader Indonesia. But let’s begin a little bit about yourself, Wulan, with a brief introduction. Tell us a bit about what you do and your career journey so far.

NUR WULAN T
All right. So I will start with this. I’m working as a business development at STAAH for Indonesia and working with the properties to grow visibility, conversion, and for sure the long-term retention. Before this, I was in airlines. OTAs and travel techs. I’ve worked both the commercial and operational side, so actually I’ve seen how decisions get made and what gets ignored.

GARY BOWERMAN
Oh, that’s interesting. So most of your work is across Indonesia or mostly based in Bali?

NUR WULAN T
Mostly in Bali, but my responsibility is Bali and the east of Indonesia, Gary.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, so… As I said to you off air, Will, I’ve been looking forward to talking to you because I always look out for your LinkedIn posts. You have this great way of looking at travel and tourism beyond the brochures, looking at it from a realistic perspective. As you said, after pandemic, we’ve seen a shift in the way travel and tourism is administered, the way it’s looked at by governments, and the whole regional perspective is changing. So we’ll bring some of that into our discussion today. Let’s start with Indonesia, which is your home country. It’s a huge country, one of the largest countries in the world, the fourth largest population, around about 285 million people. On that basis, domestic travel should be the overriding priority for government policy. Would you agree with that?

NUR WULAN T
Absolutely agree with that. What I understand is domestic travel is the engine. If I, we can take a look again in the, like last year in 2024, we recorded about 1.02 billion trips up to around like 20 % year on year. And as May 2025, this year, the number actually already crossed 98 million, tracking another strong client, right? This is not actually a backup market, Gary, if I may say. It’s actually the core of the market of Indonesia. Countries like Japan and China recognize this as really early than Indonesia, I believe. They built a system that serves their own citizens first. And because they think when the locals move, the economy moves. What happened in Indonesia is Indonesia has the number. What we need is the structure. So affordability, access, and service standards that support our own people just as much as we serve international guests. And what I think is domestic travellers aren’t actually an afterthought. They are the foundation with this kind of market. We don’t need to downgrade the market, our market ambitions, just to rebalance the attention. I think that’s the gap on this market, Gary, for now.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah. So I’m going to pick up on one of the topics that you mentioned, and you mentioned affordability. Now, we know that Indonesia is a huge country, thousands of islands, but you have, you know, maybe a handful of main islands. To get around Indonesia, you need to fly mostly because it’s just so big. But one of the problems for domestic travel is that domestic flight prices are high, right? Yeah. How is that impacting the way that Indonesians view travel and tourism in their own country?

NUR WULAN T
Actually, there are technical reasons, I must say. Like jet fuel cost, airport fees, limited carrier competition, you know. And most travelers understand that. I believe that they understand like I do. But what hurts is the lack of the transparency of the pricing and consistent oversight. Let’s say we talk about Jakarta and Bali, right? Jakarta-Bali return used to sit around, well, 1.2 million tickets price.

GARY BOWERMAN
Indonesian rupiah, right?

NUR WULAN T
Yes, correct, Gary. But today, it can easily cost around Indonesian rupiah 3 million. for return. So it’s a lot, right? With no major upgrade in service. So that kind of price shift impact not just tourism, but business mobility, family access, and even like the overall public trust. As in 2025, this year, Indonesia Domestic actually got the revenue hit around 381.04 trillion Indonesian rupiah, but rising costs are the beginning to train trip frequency. Many have started shifting to trains, to cars, or simply staying local. If we want that number to grow in a healthy way, we need a price model that, what I can say, is that balance. fairness with sustainability and policies, especially that make flying feel possible, not exclusive.

GARY BOWERMAN
So for our listeners around the world, Wulan, Indonesia, you mentioned the numbers, they’re huge. The distances are big to travel. When do Indonesians tend to travel domestically? Are there specific periods around the year?

NUR WULAN T
If we talk of groups, yes, like a school holiday, right? Or probably Idul Fitri. It’s the holy, like, Muslim, because we do have, like, a Muslim majority. But, you know, like, at this stage, I can say it, there is a lot of shift that happens with that kind of a huge amount of spending. I think people are now switching from, you know, like, 9 to 5 working. They went to, like, a digital nomad beach. They can work from anywhere. So that’s why I think it’s just like, you know, pushing the trips more often. I think that’s it, Gary.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah. So coming back to the domestic travel scene, Indonesia has some big name travel players in the travel and lifestyle sectors. We think of Travel Locker, Ticket.com, Garuda, Lion Group, Gojek, lots of these emerging brands and SMEs as well. But you’ve mentioned that sometimes domestic players get overlooked. Can you tell us a bit more?

NUR WULAN T
We are seeing smarter moves from the ground. So Traveloka is growing beyond the bookings. They are pushing into fintechs with the pallet, insurance, and even health. And then we talk about Ticket is refining its omnichannel service with a better use flow. But the real shift is not actually the title or headline. It’s how the small operators are adapting our responsibility building. Direct partnership, diversifying product and finding ways to stay competitive without relying on top-down support. And that said, some informal channels, such as unchecked WhatsApp bookings, are creating serious risks. Right now, scams, misinformation, and zero consumer protection hurt trust long-term. growth without a governance leader to damage. So the players who last are the ones who balance the agility, who accountability fast, but doesn’t mean are careless.

GARY BOWERMAN
And you mentioned that Travelloka is an interesting company because it’s actually expanding internationally, right? It’s actually becoming more of a globalized brand.

NUR WULAN T
Yes. I think they are expanding to Australia and Korea because I keep having an event with them, right? I think two weeks ago. And with that, they are expanding more markets, which is really good. Right now, I saw a lot of Korean people come to Bali, which is really, really good.

GARY BOWERMAN
Let’s talk a little bit about Bali, because Bali is internationally known as Indonesia. I mean, I think that’s the way a lot of travelers around the world perceive Bali, is that it is Bali. It’s the destination. And I was looking at the statistics for last year, 2024, and 45 % of passengers that arrived by air internationally to Indonesia actually visited or arrived at Bali International Airport. So it has a huge concentration of the inbound market is in Bali. Is that why we read so many stories about it? After the pandemic, there’s been a lot of focus on Bali in the media. A lot of it has been negative. Some of it has been positive. But we do read a lot about it. And is that because tourism is so concentrated in one place?

NUR WULAN T
What I see right now is, you know, Bali is full of volume without a value. Bali actually saw around 6 .3 million international visitors last year. And then around 16 .4 million total, including domestic. But infrastructure cannot keep up, especially with the kind of like sifting with the domestic wise, right? Because like with a kind of like a trip with Scar as well, they come to Bali. So over 80 % of the international bookings too are going through the global OTA. And then the local operators earn that, you know, earn less than they did five years ago where… We built the, you know, like I think we built for glamour shoot instead of like a real ecosystem. So, yeah, I think a dump of flight ban and, you know, and the whole thing stutters right now.

GARY BOWERMAN
As somebody who lives in Bali, as a separate aside from working in the travel industry, what are some of the challenges that you see that tourism has created, particularly since the pandemic?

NUR WULAN T
The most issues that need to be addressed right now is, you know, First thing first, we need a clarity. We need a consistency. And then the real system. I think right now what we get is only like lip service, if I may say. We need to introduce enforceable zoning waste system because it’s a huge problem here. And then institution check in with the communities. Again, I think… especially in Indonesia, communities is really impactful on the ecosystem as well. So we need to go with that. And let’s say like the Bali moratorium on the new hotels is a start, but we need more, kind of like five more layers, like urban planning, because I don’t know how to say it, but you know, Bali is now really messy with the building and villa and stuff. And then again, I will add like a mass transit and then local utilities. So the upcoming, if you heard about the MRT, the upcoming Bali MRT is a good step. But it has to connect people, not just the resort. That’s my thought about it.

GARY BOWERMAN
So in terms of the MRT system, which mostly would be in the south of Bali, I believe. That would help to alleviate some of the traffic problems because the traffic problems are a big issue, right?

NUR WULAN T
Correct.

GARY BOWERMAN
And so looking at Bali in terms of its tourism development over the past 20, 30, maybe even longer years, it’s been mostly in the south of Bali, right? And the airport is in the south. All the developments are in the south. There is talk, a lot of talk about having a northern airport, a second airport. Is that going to happen? And do you think that that would actually bring benefits?

NUR WULAN T
For the happening? We’ll see later, if I may say, because like, it’s always like, you know, on the plan, you know, every governor that chosen is always on the plan, but it’s never happened until now. And then suddenly the president just, he agreed to add another airport in the north. For my perspective is, you know, somehow people are not agreeing with that, but somehow I think that’s another solution to, you know, like, split what happened in the south you know because like south right now is too much it’s it’s if you heard that Bali right now is the second island that’s really crowded in the world so I think the north airport in Bali should be happening because like Bali right now is too much villa too much building you know the infrastructure does not happen here and you know if we go up there we can still like, you know, showing what Bali it is because I think in the north part of Bali, we still have a good nature, good, you know, like beauty of the island.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, it’s a beautiful island. The north is beautiful and so is the west. It’s a very, very beautiful island. You mentioned there, going back to the statistics of it, you mentioned, you know, six plus million international visitors, 10 plus million domestic visitors. Most of the international visitors will go to the south. What about the domestic visitors? Are they dispersed more across the island or do they also head for the south of Bali?

NUR WULAN T
Mostly on the south island.

GARY BOWERMAN
So it’s a big congestion.

NUR WULAN T
I mean, you know, how I can say it, Indonesia people, it’s just, you know, if you heard about us, we are actually… really like gadget people right we are into the social media too right so then there is something viral there okay let’s go there blah blah and then if there is another but mostly the viral things is happening in the south so so it should be in the south so for example if you’re taking a ferry to Bali and you arrive in the West of Bali and then you want to drive to say I don’t know Kuta or one of the Southern destinations

GARY BOWERMAN
How long does it take to drive from the ferry to Kuta?

NUR WULAN T
Okay, so from the harbor to the south, do you mean?
Yeah. I think it’s around three or four hours.

GARY BOWERMAN
Three or four hours. So it’s easy to do for a weekend. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Indonesia is a huge country, has huge potential for international inbound tourism. But if you go back to 2019, it was… Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Vietnam all attracted more tourists than Indonesia. Singapore is a very small country. Why is it that Indonesia tends to underperform in terms of inbound tourism? You would think a country with the diversity, the beauty, the opportunities, that it would be more successful at attracting visitors. Yeah.

NUR WULAN T
Yeah, yeah. That’s the question. That’s a really good question that I think I need to highlight about it. I think why Indonesia is keep… I think it’s just like they don’t know what to do, you know, right? I think it’s because like Indonesia right now is confusing with what we want to bring to the world as an introduction. So I think like, you know, like Singapore, you know, they know what to do and they know how to introduce them, their capability to the world, right? Like it’s a hub, it’s a technology-wise and everything. But Indonesia, if I really can be honest here, Indonesia is the… We want to try to promote everything in one brochure, if I may say. So it’s like from luxury to spiritual to backpacker content. All at once. So yeah, so the result? Again, we dilute the message. Let’s say we, if you know, we flip the visa rules, we change the airport policies, and we, again, in the end of the day, we confuse the travelers. With the inconsistency entry experience, the country itself is not the issue. It’s the execution, and the intention is that. But the system doesn’t move fast enough to meet. So what we need to focus is the storytelling. We have to focus on what we bring, what we want to introduce, and supported by the function system. We can lead in ecotourism. We can lead in cultural heritage. We can lead in Muslim-friendly travel, but only. If we pair that with a visa clarity, infrastructure stability, and a real-time digital response, right now, people are choosing ease over the beauty. So that’s where we are losing right now, what I think.

GARY BOWERMAN
It’s interesting that you referenced Singapore and, I guess, Thailand as well. They both have a sort of branding, a national branding, and that sort of attracts tourism because you mentioned the storytelling, they have that. So you mentioned that that’s one of the deficits. What about the infrastructure? Do you think infrastructure is an issue for visitors to Indonesia?

NUR WULAN T
Right now, yes. If I can be honest, yes, infrastructure is quite messy here, especially in Bali. If you want to come again, please take a look by yourself. But yeah, right now, the real problem and one of the biggest problems here in Bali is the infrastructure. So we have to fix that as soon as possible.

GARY BOWERMAN
You mentioned there that Indonesia, a Muslim-majority country, has the largest Muslim population in the world. It leads in attracting Muslim travelers but you’ve referenced there are things that it could do more effectively what are the things that it could do more effectively?

NUR WULAN T
So actually for the Muslim traveler we are the biggest Muslim majority country in the world right and then in 2023 the global Muslim travel index ranked us like a number two which sounds really impressive but in reality we say Philippines and Malaysia are moving with a clear structure, certification, staff training, and infrastructure that genuinely support Muslim traveler. In Indonesia, we see terms like halal-friendly used a lot in platforms, in campaigns, but they often lack consistency. The gaps are… not about the opportunity it’s just something that’s sacred into the marketing line so basically we don’t have any standard we don’t have any training we don’t yeah and yeah the consistency itself is just like we miss that thing in every line of attracting the Muslim traveler so example like Malaysia like they do have the Muslim friendly hospitality assurance It’s a real framework, right? Indonesia has incredible potential, but right now we need a deeper execution to match the narrative. So leading in this space means we meet the real respect, clarity in service, clean facilities, proper staff knowledge. I think that’s really, really important. And again, it’s not about the perfection. It’s the intention and consistency that we need for this Muslim travelers.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah. You wrote a really good quote from you. I noticed that you wrote recently was, it’s not just about religion. It’s about design, experience, and respect. And in that sense, I mean, Indonesia, in terms of experiences, the options are infinite, really. I mean, there is so much that could be promoted to Muslim travelers, to international travelers. I guess it’s bringing all of those things together.

NUR WULAN T
Yeah, true. But what happened is just like they copy paste. thing. And that’s it. I don’t think it’s copy -pasted things. And just like, you know, do it whatever you do it. You know, it’s not a real respect.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah. So you’ve referenced three other countries. You mentioned them, Malaysia. But you’ve also referenced in your writings, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, which are both Muslim countries. But you also referenced Japan, which is interesting. What do you think Japan is doing well?

NUR WULAN T
Japan has, again, consistency. And then knowledge, I think that’s the base, you know, the best thing that we need to put into our system to attract them. So whenever we do the consistency, whenever we do the knowledge, right? So they know what they can do and what they cannot do. And then in the end of the day, they can just like being creative, not only copy piece, you know, like, oh, they need like prayer place or they need things or they need only like a halal food. No, they provide more than that. So that’s why I think Japan is really good. And we all know that they are really consistent. They are really creative because they learn about the basic knowledge.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah. And they’re very successful. More than 21 million visitors in the first half of the year. It’s astonishing, right? Yeah. So let’s broaden that just before we wrap up, Wulan. I wanted to ask you about, we talked about Bali, we’ve talked about Muslim tourism, we’ve talked about the broader opportunities. A few years ago, the Indonesian government launched a plan to develop 10 new Balis. And then it streamlined that policy to five super-priority destinations. What do you think about that? How is this developing and what’s the intention behind it?

NUR WULAN T
In my opinion, Gary, it was a bold strategy. It’s really, really good. And naturally, it evolved, if I may say. From the original 10 destinations, we focus now on five super-priority destinations. Lake Toba, Labuan Bajo, Borobudur, Madalika, and Likupang in North Sulawesi, right? And there is a physical progress in Toba, Labuan Bajo, and Borobudur with infrastructure development, better accessibility, and culture preservation in motion. And then these places show what’s possible when planning, funding, and community support align. But Mandalika and Likupang are still catching up. And that’s not a failure, I might say, but… Kind of like every destination starts like a different baseline, right? Some areas simply need more time to groundwork, like utilities, zoning, and local readiness. What matters, again, is consistency. We don’t have it. So we always talk about deadline, about the speed, but actually that’s not the highlight here. So the goal now is… It’s not to expand more destination, it’s to prove we can deliver fully in this five. That’s how we protect trust with a quiet, visible progress and not just kind of like public promises. When we balance the ambition and honest delivery, I think that’s when a plan becomes a legacy.

GARY BOWERMAN
Do you think that the five super priorities will be promoted both to domestic travelers and internationally?

NUR WULAN T
Yes, actually. From now on, what I see, Toba, Alabon Bajul, and Borobudur is really, really good with the promotion. But like Mandalika, they are trying, and then they are keeping up with that, especially with the MotoGP, right? But Likupang is still like outside of nowhere, I believe, because they are not really accessible. That’s what I said. So they are trying right now. They are still trying to keep up as well, but I think they need more time.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, because Lekupang is beautiful. That area, that region is absolutely beautiful, right?

NUR WULAN T
Yeah. Yeah, right. A lot of opportunities.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, so we are now just past the middle of 2025. For the rest of the year, what’s your travel schedule? Where are you looking to travel over the next year? What’s on your mind? Where’s your bucket list?

NUR WULAN T
In Indonesia. Generally? Generally. Okay. So I really want to explore more in the East because believe me, the East is really beautiful.

I’ve been living in Papua as well, so I know how beautiful it is. But like, yeah. I really want to go back, but in different areas as well. So basically, I really want to explore more in the East.

GARY BOWERMAN
So for example, if you wanted to fly from Bali to Sumba or that region, how long does that take you? How far is it?

NUR WULAN T
I think it depends. If we go to Sumba, I think around two hours by flight. And then after the flight, we have to go, like, you know, it’s really far from this point to each point. So that’s, I think, I need more time with that to explore. And then if we go to Papua, I think it will take around six hours.

GARY BOWERMAN
Shows you the size of the country. And what’s the best time of year to travel to those two destinations?

NUR WULAN T
I think it’s summer. It’s just good, yes. Because, you know, like when it’s rain, I believe Malaysia have it, right? So when it’s rain, it’s crazy and it’s not good for us to fly.

GARY BOWERMAN
And for the rest of the year, how do you see travel in Bali? Do you think it will just get busier and busier?

NUR WULAN T
Yes, especially with a lot of plans that happen right now. Still confusing, but I think it’s going to be if… Again, if the North is happening, I think it’s going really busier for the next year. But the thing is, right now, I saw everyone looking for another destination. Again, Labuan Bajo is working right now. Mandalika is working. And what else? I think that’s it. Yeah.

GARY BOWERMAN
And so it’s been fascinating to talk to you. Well, I’ve really enjoyed talking about Indonesia, which is a very complex country, very difficult country sometimes to understand from the outside. If you and I were having this conversation in one year’s time, 12 months ahead, do you think we’ll be talking about the same things or will there be some different things we’d focus on?

NUR WULAN T
From year to year, we still have that kind of like a gap, you know, with the consistency, especially. I think I mentioned this a lot. But yes, I think that’s the gap that it’s over, you know, it’s happening over and over and over again. As long as we decide the system, decide the consistency, decide the honesty, I think, and the structure, I think we will go into talk another things the next year.

GARY BOWERMAN
So in 12 months time, finishing on a positive note, do you think there’ll be progress? We’ll have progress to talk about.

NUR WULAN T
Well, I believe there will be.

GARY BOWERMAN
That’s great to hear. Wulan, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much for illuminating us more on the fabulous country that is Indonesia. It’s one of my favorite countries to visit, but it is a complex country and there’s a lot more for us to learn. So thank you very much for sharing your time and your insights today.

NUR WULAN T
Thank you so much, Gary.

GARY BOWERMAN
So that’s a wrap for this edition of the High-Yield Tourism Podcast. My thanks to Wulan for… Her highly thoughtful insights about the evolving era of travel and tourism in Indonesia, one of the world’s most beautiful countries. Please join the conversation on our LinkedIn page at High-Yield Tourism. And we’ll be back soon to talk more High-Yield Tourism. See you then.