GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and welcome to the High-Yield Tourism Podcast. I’m Gary Bowerman. On today’s show, Dr Jens Traenhart and I will be discussing the future of high-yield tourism as showcased at Expo 2025 Osaka. So, let’s get started. This is High-Yield Tourism.

GARY BOWERMAN
Hello, and thanks for listening in. Today, Jens is back with me, although only remotely. He’s currently in Japan, and he visited the Expo 2025 in Osaka this week. He’s written a fascinating article about how countries worldwide are presenting their culture, history, technology, and tourism appeal to Expo visitors, and that’s what we’re going to discuss today. So, Jens, great to be back with you. How was Osaka 2025?

DR JENS THRAENHART
Hey Gary good to see you again and first of all it was hot. I think Japan is really going through a heat wave and coming from from Riyadh and then and then to Bangkok for a few days I thought you know nothing could scare me but it was truly hot and what’s interesting around that was this whole theme around Expo 2025 is around sustainability and then building a better life. And yes, there were water refill stations there, but only very sparse. And then you had to line up for 45 minutes to an hour in some stations. Later on, I found some ones that didn’t have long lines, but I would have hoped that they would have had more focus on reducing or eliminating single-use plastic bottles, water bottles. Yet they had quite a few vending machines, more than water refill stations. So that was a bit of a surprise for me. And maybe, you know, someone from Expo 2025 hears it, and maybe they can still change it until October. But I think it definitely needs more water refill stations. And they were high in demand.

GARY BOWERMAN
Interesting that you mentioned the theme is about building a better life. My experience of an expo, similar to yours, Jens, was in 2010 in Shanghai, when we were both living in China. That was also focused on sustainability. It was called Better City, Better Life. But the one thing about Expo 2010 in Shanghai was that it basically changed the framing of expos, and they became these incredibly huge six-month-long tourism showcases. Has Osaka taken that theme onwards? You mentioned sustainability, but is it primarily about promoting tourism?

DR JENS THRAENHART
Well, I mean, normally the government organizations that are the leads from a country to do that are the ministries of economy or trade, sometimes it can be foreign affairs. So it’s not really the tourism ministries that are that much involved. They’re probably engaged. And maybe with some countries, they’re more than others. And obviously, some embassies have tourism offices. So, I mean, if there is a country where the embassy obviously always is very involved, and maybe the tourism office, if there is an integrated office in the embassy, is probably also engaged. But normally it’s driven by the Ministry of Economy and the Ministry of Trade because it’s, I think, about driving investment primarily. So what you see is obviously showcasing the countries to drive soft power in a certain way. We talked about soft power before. It’s really inspiring people and looking at these countries. And you and I travel all over the world. But I mean, for people that don’t travel, and that’s probably the majority of people, it’s a great showcase to touch on or get acquainted with countries that in many cases, maybe they never heard about. and step into these countries. So it is very interesting for these pavilions. And you mentioned I wrote an article, which we’re going to publish in a few days. Many of these pavilions actually have their own websites. And some are amazing. Some are integrated with other government websites. But some are really, really good. And they’ve become a showcase of what is to be expected in these pavilions. But yes, I mean, they’re showcasing. But they’re obviously trying to also drive this whole theme, which this year was designing future society for our lives. So it is around sustainability. So many of them, especially countries like Germany, really, and Holland, but even Brazil as well, took a real stance in driving innovation, driving technology and AI, and driving sustainability.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, so you referenced your article there, which we’ll publish shortly, and we’ll put… the link into the show notes for this podcast. The interesting aspect for me was the headline, the title of your article, which you’ve called Expo 2025 Osaka, Masterclass in Passion Tourism and Destination Storytelling. So tell us a little bit more about why you chose that title and what you observed, the reasoning behind it.

DR JENS THRAENHART
As I mentioned, while these expos are not driven by the ministries of tourism, for the most part, there might be some countries where the ministries of tourism are more engaged. But I know, let’s say with Germany, it is really around investment, innovation, and trade.

I think it is an amazing opportunity for us as tourism marketers and tourism researchers to see how countries are positioning themselves. Because essentially, tourism is part of trade. You know, it is. Getting money into the country. It’s export revenues. So again, I think it is a line. So many of these people that go into these pavilions are not looking to drop a few million dollars to buy some company from Canada or Germany or from wherever or building a hotel or a building in Mozambique. No, I mean, they’re… in the market to visit that country and travel and getting inspired. So for us, obviously, when we’re looking at high-yield travel, how can these countries, first of all, get on the map, position themselves, but then also touch the passion of people? So, I mean, as you know, I’m really engaged in this whole concept of passion tourism. And I think in the end, if I go into a pavilion and there is something around, let’s say, culture or around adventure or around food or other passions that I might have, and this pavilion really showcases that from a storytelling standpoint in a very effective way, and even better if it’s immersive, interactive, then… I might be very much inclined to say, hey, you know what? I want to see the real thing.

GARY BOWERMAN
So that brings us to a key point, actually, for this article. And this is something that we discussed often. And that’s the visitor demographics. If we go back to my previous example was Expo 2010 in Shanghai. Almost 70 million people attended that. And I think about 90 % were Chinese. Who are the primary visitor demographics for Expo 2025? And why does that matter, Jens?

DR JENS THRAENHART
Well, I think with any expo, and I only have been to a couple as well, I mean, Shanghai being one of them, and they’re obviously Chinese visitors or Chinese consumers were the primary attendees. In this case here in Osaka, it was primarily Japanese. And as we have been to Japan, you’ve been to Japan many times, I’ve been to Japan many times, Japan is very Japanese. It’s a very domestic culture. Many of the guides there or help us didn’t speak a word of English. Many things were just in Japanese. The information that you would see in brochures or on the apps, or actually two apps, which is quite confusing, was mostly in Japanese. So it is really geared in this case for Osaka for the Japanese consumer. I would say the second country that I saw the most people was probably Chinese. Now, I didn’t go to the Dubai Expo, but maybe Dubai was different, you know, because Dubai is a little bit of a hub. So maybe Dubai was more international. Maybe someone can tell us when we post the article. But again, in this case, it was primarily Japanese people and then maybe Chinese. Now, why is that important, you ask? I think it’s important, obviously, because when you go into the pavilions, a lot of stuff obviously is written in Japanese. Number one. Number two, they’re obviously trying to attract Japanese consumers. Japan is a very active travel market. Now with the Yen obviously a little bit down, it’s been going back. And Japan as an inbound destination has really skyrocketed over the last year or so, I would say right after COVID. But again, Japan is still a very strong consumer market from a travel standpoint, from an investment standpoint, and so on. Targeting the Japanese consumer who may be buying Japanese goods, right? I mean, obviously, there’s a lot of Japanese goods and you have stands also from some of the brands like Panasonic, for example, that had their own huge pavilion and other ones as well. But then also to travel, right? Or buy, you know, matcha tea or whatever it might be.

GARY BOWERMAN
I’m going to pull out some of the observations from your article, which I thought were the most interesting. I think it’s important to remember that this year’s expo is hosted in Osaka Bay on a man -made island called Yumashima Island, which I think will later be transformed into Japan’s first integrated casino resort, I think in about five years’ time. So the location itself is quite important. But one of your observations where I just thought was really interesting was that you said one of the reasons to visit Osaka, is it offers invaluable insights for tourism professionals worldwide. Now, you’ve talked a little bit about the visitor demographics. Tell us a little bit about what were you expecting before you went to Expo and what did you learn?

DR JENS THRAENHART
For me personally, you know, similar to you and probably many of our listeners, I mean, if you travel a lot, it’s not so much about finding out about the countries, you know, because we know many of the countries or maybe some of them we actually work with.It’s interesting just to see how they position themselves and also how, what is their story, right? How they’re looking to differentiate themselves amongst all these other pavilions. So, I mean, in the end, it’s like when you’re looking to decide with your wife, where am I go on vacation? And you’re going to… an online travel agency website, you’re going to an inspirational website or to blogs or, you know, watching videos online to get inspired. It’s condensed. I mean, you have it really all in one space presented to you. So that’s something that’s very interesting because, yes, we have the internet and we can visit countries virtually via their websites, via their social media. maybe even VR experiences. But here you have the countries actually coming to you. And it’s different than the trade shows that we experience, if it’s ITB or WTM or ATM in Dubai, London, Berlin, or wherever it might be, because there it’s really around trade. Here it’s around the countries are building their soft power and looking to presenting themselves and spending a lot of money, many of them. I mean, if you look at France, Germany, China, USA, Canada, but even smaller countries, Holland had a huge presence and really looked at sustainability. So it’s building their positioning, inspiring people, and engaging them. It’s true. Many times, I mean, Canada had a very fascinating way of engaging people with… AR with augmented reality, where you walk in and you have these simulated icebergs, you know, kind of bringing you into Canada almost. And then you had this tablet and you walk around. And I was there with my seven-year-old daughter. And you basically, when you kind of hold the iPad to these icebergs and you walk around, you can see. waterfalls, you can see cityscapes, and you can see trains. So you basically experience Canada in a very cool, immersive, and interactive way. So it’s really around inspiring people and engaging people.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, we’ll come back to some of the pavilions that you found most interesting, most intriguing. But you’ve coined this phrase, well, I think you’ve coined it, Jens, if not, we’ll claim it anyway, called the popularity paradox, which is a great phrase, lovely alliteration. But this really aligns to the length of the lines to get into some of these pavilions and what that says about how they actually plan the experiences that you’ll have once you get inside. Tell us a bit more about what you mean by the popularity paradox.

DR JENS THRAENHART
Well, many times if you’re a first-time Expo visitor, you might be hit on the head a little bit by getting surprised that if you want to get into some of these amazing pavilions that you might walk by or that you may have heard about, like the US or Canada or Germany or Saudi Arabia or China and other ones, I mean, the lines are just very, very long. you know so I mean and then like how long well I mean like it could be an hour it could be two hours you know maybe even more some countries even closed it during the afternoon what I read later and I experienced myself we left at around nine o’clock in the evening that it was easy to get in actually after six because maybe people leave and go back home so if I had one tip for people especially if you’re going to the Expo and if the heat stays on, go at around four or five, walk around a little bit and then trying to get into the pavilions in the evening. Some may close early, but they also have events. They had bands. Australia had a band. Canada had a band. US and so on. So it becomes a whole different environment. The lighting obviously is amazing. So the evening experience is quite intriguing. But going back to your question about the popularity paradox, I think when you walk by and you see these lines, the question is obviously, why is there a long line? You ask yourself, is it because this pavilion must be amazing? But many times you don’t know what’s in the pavilion. And I would say 95 % of the attendees don’t. Visitors don’t do any research before, even if not more. So you don’t know. So you walk by, you see a long line. Now, some pavilions are pretty amazing. I mean, even if you look at, let’s say, Thailand or Pakistan or other ones, it’s really creative how they build their pavilions. So you might get intrigued, number one, by the outside, you know, and say, like, okay, well, this is something I want to go in because the design is really good. The second thing might be, well, I heard about this country, and this is where I kind of look to connect this popularity paradox. It’s around the whole notion of soft power. And it’s always, I mean, it’s the same thing with Shanghai. I mean, you couldn’t get into China, impossible. Nobody, the host country, is the hardest to get into. It was the same thing here in Japan. But then there are the countries that are always crazy. You know, Germany, US, Canada, UK other ones and these are the countries if you compare that with the country brand index and other place branding rankings it’s very consistent right so there is a correlation between the long lines and the soft power of the country that’s fascinating and one of the things that you told me

GARY BOWERMAN
Fascinating and one of the things that you told me which sounds incredibly obvious, but in this very, very competitive world of tourism marketing, you said the key advantage really is when countries play to their own advantages, which sounds obvious. Have you got a couple of examples? One that you did I thought was intriguing was Pakistan. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

DR JENS THRAENHART
Yeah, so they have these, what they call the common pavilions. So these are pavilions where they pack in all the countries that don’t have the budget or the desire to have a big pavilion, right? You might have a pavilion in Dubai because you’re looking to be very active in the GCC, but you may not target the Japanese market, right? So Barbados is a good example. So Barbados was one of the common pavilions, you know, and didn’t have a huge present there. There was kind of like a simulated bar, rum bar, and then there was a video of the prime ministers. featuring kind of her message around inclusivity and climate change and so on. But yeah, so there are many developing and emerging countries that are in these common pavilions. And they’re interesting because, you know, it’s a little bit more like a trade show. It moves like this. You walk around and you have little shows. You can taste some food. You can walk through it. You know, so it’s a little bit like WTM, ITB style, but still a little bit more engaging because it’s a different mission. But you mentioned Pakistan. I mean, Pakistan, you know, what’s interesting, they were in one of the common pavilions and I saw them by accident, but their entire little pavilion within the common pavilion was entirely made out of real Himalayan pink salt. This is something that obviously Pakistan does. Many people don’t know about this, you know, but I think by really focusing on your strengths. Either as a good pink salt or as maybe a micro niche. That is something that’s very unique to you. We went into the Peru Pavilion, and they’re really looking to connect this whole thing around culture and heritage with conservation. And they’ve done an amazing job where even my daughter said, like, wow, I want to go to Peru. So it’s having a message that resonates where people come out of that pavilion. It’s like, you know what? I learned something. I want to go there. And this is a country that stands for something.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah. Pink salt is soft power. That’s terrific. I think you referenced there, Jens, that you visited Expo with your seven-year-old daughter. And I think one of the hottest topics and perhaps one of the biggest challenges in destination marketing at the moment is how to capture, attract, and engage family travelers. This is something that you experienced firsthand, how countries are doing this at the Expo. But an interesting story that you told me relates to AI and technology and how your daughter responded differently to you to some of the things that she was experiencing. Can you elaborate on that?

DR JENS THRAENHART
It’s interesting because whenever she has a question or even feels bored or lonely, she turns to her phone and opens ChatGPT as a trusted friend and sometimes even plays games with it as well. And I mean, ChatGPT responds to her and knows exactly kind of, you know, how she resonates and what she understands and how to engage her. It’s actually fascinating. I mean, because we use ChatGPT completely different from a seven-year-old girl in this. But I’ll give you an example. So we went into the UAE booth. And she said, what’s UAE? And I said, well, you’ve been there, you know, it’s Dubai. I was like, oh, Dubai chocolate. I know. I bring her Dubai chocolate when I come back from Saudi Arabia and she loves it. So there’s another soft power tool. But we went into this and she said like, so Papa, what can I do in Dubai? And I said, oh, you know, it’s a lot of buildings and so on. But she wasn’t really happy with my answer. And so she turned to ChatGPT and asked, you know, what can I do in Dubai? You know, and then she kind of walked through and said like, oh, I see this. It was this coffee cup. And so it’s like, OK, I see this. So she kind of told ChatGPT what she was seeing. And ChatGPT came back integrating her experience with actually what. you know, it’s available, you know, what ChatGPT can pull and then fabricating it into a message to her. So good that because she was inspired that then she’s like, oh, you know what? Yeah, now I actually know more about Dubai. You know, I call it in my article, I call the parent test, right? So I mean, like, you know, with Expo. So you walk around and there are some pavilions that are obviously not interesting. They might be even amazing outside, but you go in there and there’s not much to do. And other ones are really inspiring and engaging and so on. And I always saw when my daughter pulled out her phone and asked ChatGPT, you know, she was engaged. She was interested. Where before, maybe when we grew up, it’s kind of like we would ask our parents, like, oh, you know, I want to go there. Now she would take initiative herself. do her own research via AI, to get more information and link it and merge it with the experience that she’s having in that pavilion right now.

GARY BOWERMAN
That’s a fascinating insight. Just before we wrap up, Jens, referencing your article again, there was another… interesting case study that you gave and this is another challenge I think in international travel and tourism at the moment is how do you promote lifestyle outdoor lifestyle in new and interesting ways everybody’s trying to capture that desire to commune with nature more to get outdoors and to experience the real world you mentioned that Australia did this in quite an intriguing way with its chasing the sun pavilion can you tell us a bit more?

DR JENS THRAENHART
We didn’t get into the Australia Pavilion, the lines were again too long. As you can imagine, Australia has strong soft power and a lot of people wanted to get into this. But I did some research. So they paired these emerging travel trends with immersive day-to-night experiences that kind of made visitors, you know, kind of want to discover Australian culture for themselves. Some of these pavilions really looked at emerging technology and then bringing out what they’re known for. And obviously, Australia is known for the outdoors, for the great outback. But you look at some other pavilions that did an amazing job with connecting to their strengths and then driving or leveraging technology and AI to bring that alive. China is one. We all know about the Monkey King. So they kind of had an AI simulation where the Monkey King comes alive. And anyone who has been to China, lived in China and so on, knows the story of the Monkey King. I think it’s the first thing you hear when you travel to China as a long-term visitor. Your friends will tell you about the Monkey King. Another great example was Austria. And obviously Austria is known for Mozart and Beethoven and music. They brought that to life. And that’s another micro niche, you know, kind of culture, but through music. And they did this very, very well. Also, we couldn’t get into that pavilion. It was just impossible to get in. So these are just some examples. I could go on and on. But how these countries now leveraging technology and AI to bring their strengths to life. Because before, when we, you know, both we were in Shanghai at Expo there in 2010, that was more like a one-way kind of way, right? You look at things, maybe it was presented in a very amazing way. The most amazing stuff that I remember from Shanghai was maybe like a 360 kind of screen. But it’s still, it’s one way. You know, now you engage, you immerse, you participate with their strengths. And that’s a lot stronger because that’s something that you remember because you’re doing it. You’re actually actively involved. And that’s powerful.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. It just shows you how much technology has changed in the last 15 years and how that’s being used by destinations. You referenced soft power a few times, but it’s being used by destinations really to transport us into this multidimensional realm of tourism marketing, which will continue. I mean, we’re really probably only scratching the surface right now. In five years’ time, the next expo, certainly in 10 years’ time, it may be very, very different again, and maybe then. We may even have moved beyond the smartphone. Maybe the way that we engage with technology will be slightly different.

DR JENS THRAENHART
One more thing, Gary. And you had an interesting podcast a couple of weeks ago on digital nomads. And digital nomads are, in a way, they’re investors into a destination, right? Because you move there long term, you’re staying there for a long time, you’re spending money and so on. There are quite a few people, I would assume, that are looking at these pavilions and maybe thinking, well, yes, where should I go on holidays? Where should I visit? But at this point in time, I would say there are also quite a few people that say, oh, well, you know what? This is a place that I could live. This is a place that I could maybe work from. This is a place where maybe I could buy a house or a condo. this is maybe a place where I want to set up my company, right? I mean, you and I are somewhat digital nomads. You know, you’re from the UK, you live in Malaysia. I’m from Germany and Canada. I live in Bangkok and, you know, work all over the world. But I think this is a lens that many people are now looking at because it’s possible to work from anywhere. Countries that successfully connect technology, then also build this connection of say, hey, you know what? I could work there remotely. I want to be there and immerse myself in the culture. I think that’s another very strong potential for countries to leverage on.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, that’s kind of taken us full circle, really. I agree with you. The structural underpinnings of travel and the reasons that people travel have changed completely, and COVID has definitely had an impact on that. And going back to what you said right at the beginning, travel and tourism promotion now isn’t just about attracting holidaymakers. It’s also about soft power. It’s about trade. It’s about investment. In many cases, it’s about diplomacy and geopolitics as well. So many things encapsulated, and that’s why I think it was important for us to… To reflect on your visit to Osaka, Jens, it sounds like you learned a great deal. The article is coming out soon. As I said, we’ll reference that on our LinkedIn site and on our website. Jens, thanks very much for joining me. And I’m really glad that you shared some of these insights with us because I’ve learned a lot from speaking to you today.

DR JENS THRAENHART
Thank you, Gary. It’s been a great experience. Obviously, Japan is going through a lot of changes, not just from a travel and tourism standpoint, also politically speaking. Expo 2025 being in Osaka is actually quite interesting. It’s a second time that it’s actually in Osaka, which many people don’t know. But maybe one thing, and I would encourage anyone to go if you are able to, but they’ve built something which they call Sturkel. I’ve got the correct name now. But it’s this timber structure that goes around the entire… compound of Expo 2025. It’s amazing. I mean, it is really one of these structures, you know, that is almost like a little wonder because, you know, when you are in there inside this and you can walk around it while it is super hot outside, you have a breeze going through. I mean, it is pretty astonishing. And so there are a lot of innovations that are there. I didn’t go to the hall or the pavilion of the future of life, which many people talk about, but you needed an advanced reservation for that. So in addition to travel and tourism and how country presents themselves, there is also a lot of innovation that is being presented to see how people live and work in the coming years.

GARY BOWERMAN
Yeah, thanks for that, Jens. So that’s a wrap for this edition of the High-Yield Tourism podcast. My thanks to Jens for his insightful observations from Expo 2025 in Osaka, Japan. Please join the conversation on our LinkedIn page and we’ll be back soon to talk more high-yield tourism. See you next time.