GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and welcome to the High-Yield Tourism Podcast. I’m Gary Bowerman. On today’s show, I’ll be discussing developments in accessible and inclusive travel with Singapore-based responsible tourism entrepreneur, Yok Song -lu. So let’s get started. This is High Yield Tourism.

GARY BOWERMAN
Hello and thanks for listening in. Today it’s my pleasure to welcome to the show Yock Song Law, a Singaporean tourism entrepreneur and co-founder and CEO of Ludus Lab, a startup focused on accessible travel, training and development. Yock Song spent more than a decade with the Singapore Tourism Board and has also been a board member for the Ras Al Khaimah Tourism Development Authority. So, Yock Song, thanks so much for coming on the show. How are you doing, and where are you today?

YOCK SONG LAW
Thank you so much for inviting me. Wonderful to be here. I’m actually now in Singapore, enjoying the nice greenery outside my window view as well. I’ve actually been traveling with my mom in the southern part of China just last week and I only came back yesterday. But it was a really nice trip traveling around my mom and trying to explore around China. It’s been a… long, long time for her since she got on an overseas holiday. Her nearest destination has always been Malaysia. So this is something new for her as well.

GARY BOWERMAN
Good opportunity to explore southern China. So let’s begin with a little bit of a brief introduction about yourself, Yock Song. Tell us a bit about your career journey and also how you came to be involved in accessible and inclusive travel.

YOCK SONG LAW
Yeah, so I actually joined STB, the Singapore Tourism Board, right after my graduation. donkey years ago. So it’s always been my first job. And the ironic thing is that I always thought I’m going to be in finance because that’s actually my major. So it was an accidental entry into the space of tourism. I was with the tourism board for 10 years, spanning across multiple roles and two overseas in Vietnam, in China as well. And it was only in 2019 that I left the tourism board and I actually joined Tribe Tours as a managing partner. So over at Tribe, that’s actually where I started creating gamified outdoor escape room tours. One of it is Chinatown Murders and actually won an award for it. But that was also the time when COVID hits, 2019 to 2023 period. Times were pretty bad, but I think it provided that opportunity to innovate and to do a lot of things differently. And that was also the period of time when Enabling Village in Singapore was established. So they are actually the focal agency for persons with disability, trying to help them with employment, trying to provide them with training and courses. So at that time, they were looking for a partner to actually run a storytelling tour, which is about inclusive policies, about universal design that’s within the enabling village. But there’s a catch, which is that I need to hire persons with disability. So this is something that has never been done before. And I think they were reaching out to quite a few of the tour operators out there. And it seems like I was the only one who, you know, using the Singapore lingo, which is the only one to raise my hand to actually do that. I think that was really when I started interacting and working with different persons with disability. And that actually changes my perception as well. First is that I realized that their abilities are no less than able individuals. And hence, instead of calling them persons with disabilities, we actually use words or terms like differently abled. So we are the abled individual. They are a differently abled individuals. And one of the things as I was working with them, I realized that it’s so difficult for them to actually travel overseas. And one of the things is that there is such a huge gap in terms of information out there, in terms of helping them to plan. There was a lot of fear when it comes to travel, right? So I think that was what… got me interested to say, well, maybe that’s an opportunity in this space. And I started really working with more persons with disability from then on. So it was almost serendipity. It happened almost by chance. I think it’s, I guess, a God’s way of planning, right? For you to actually have that kind of experience back in 2023. And I think that really changes my whole perspective as well with regards to travel, because travel is really all about trying to create memorable experiences, right? And when you talk to this person with disability, a lot of them actually, they’re not born with it. They acquired a disability. They used to be traveling before that. And so to them, it’s like, you know, why is it that an able individual can continue to travel, but just because I have some form of disability, my traveling stops. It shouldn’t happen. So that was that inspiration to me and that calling that I say, well, maybe I could do something. That’s where things get a little interesting, I guess, from this year onwards, where the last two years has been focusing on getting people into Singapore, looking at how we could create accessible products for them. This is the year that I’m starting to think about how can we do outbound? How can we create some sort of network of maybe accessible travel companies around the region, around Southeast Asia, where we can actually start with somewhere nearby and get this person with this ability to start traveling outside of Singapore.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, well, that set a very, very interesting foundation for our discussion. You used a really good phrase there. You said differently able, which is a terrific phrase. In terms of accessible travel, we hear this used a lot around the world, but it’s sometimes not very well defined. I sometimes think you often hear on conference stages or in articles, the term is used, but it’s not very well defined. How do you use? What’s your sort of working definition of accessible tourism? Well,

YOCK SONG LAW
I guess in our industry, we use accessible travel and sometimes inclusive travel or inclusive tourism quite interchangeably. But in my definition, I would say accessible travel focuses a lot on the physical barriers. How do you want to remove the physical barriers to actually enable travel for people with disabilities, for even seniors, for families with strollers, for example? So this actually includes infrastructure things like your ramps, your lifts. accessible public transport, etc. Whereas inclusive tourism or inclusive travel, I would say it’s a more evolved stage where it’s about moving beyond just infrastructure, but looking at a more holistic and human-centered kind of experience. So think of it like a service design, right? How do you want to create a kind of culture where everyone feels that they are welcome? And that’s when they start to feel that I’m included in part of your planning. I’m included in part of your establishments that’s trying to offer me some sort of services rather than just trying to pay lip service to it and having like just a ramp for me to go in there. But none of the staff really knows much about my condition and how you can serve me better. So that’s how I should define the two terms.

GARY BOWERMAN
I’ve noticed from some of your posts, some of your articles from your website. that you talk sometimes about the business case for accessibility. Often when we hear it talked about in conversations on conference stages, the focus is on tourists, differently-abled tourists. What do they need? What are their expectations? What are their desires? But you’ve broadened it out into what is the actual business case. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Actually,

YOCK SONG LAW
The business case is really huge for this particular market. If you look at statistics-wise and what the world tourism organization says, they estimate that there’s over a billion people worldwide that lives with some form of disability. So it is not as niche as what we think it is. In fact, one of my motivations is that the fact that because Singapore has an aging population, we start to see a lot of my peers and their parents or their grandparents, they are actually facing difficulties when they want to travel overseas. So there is starting to have such requests coming in in terms of like, what if they are on wheelchairs? And how do they actually get to travel overseas and things like that? So that is a huge, massive and growing market for sure with aging population, especially for developed countries like ours. The second business case I would say is that there is this thing called a multiplier effect. It’s very, very real when it comes to travelers with disability because they don’t travel alone. Most of the time, people have the perception that, oh, you know, you’re a wheelchair user. I can’t cater to you. They miss out the fact that they don’t travel alone. That’s going to be a caregiver. There’s probably going to be other family members or peers that’s actually coming along as well as part of the travel experience, right? So we are actually looking at a group size of between two to four people on average. And I can attest to that because I just had a group of visitors yesterday, a wheelchair user from France, traveling around Singapore. That’s two of them. A couple of months ago, we were hosting a group of… travelers coming all the way from Australia, there’s actually four of them. So it kind of really fits into that two to four packs when they’re traveling, which means that we’re not trying to cater to one individual. Every time when they are traveling, it is actually two to four. So there is also that multiplier effect that makes the business case very viable. And they are actually willing to also pay for good services. I’m not giving a discount just because they are a person with disability. nor am I going to charge them more just because they have some form of disability and hence we need to charge premium money. It is a reasonable rate and they are definitely very willing to pay for these services as long as they believe that you are able to facilitate the kind of travel, especially if you’re a wheelchair user, for example.

GARY BOWERMAN
I want to talk more about your company and some of the directions that it’s taking. But before we do so, I want to bring it back to Singapore, which is where you’re based. You used to work for the Singapore Tourism Board. Singapore is, I would say, definitely the most forward-thinking destination in Southeast Asia for many reasons. It plans ahead. It currently has a Singapore 2040 vision for travel and tourism as part of economic development. How is inclusivity and accessibility incorporated into tourism planning and economic planning in Singapore?

YOCK SONG LAW
Actually, I think we were really fortunate that the government plans really well in terms of infrastructure needs and development. This year, the Building and Construction Authority in Singapore, they actually had a revised building code. I think they call it Building Accessibility and Building Code 2025. That basically updates the basic infrastructure framework in terms of how can it better cater to those with disability. So one of the most obvious things which has an impact for everyone is that when it talks about, let’s say you look at a transport hub, right? You need to have chairs or benches every 50 meters based on this regulation. And the reason for that is really because aging population or persons with disabilities, sometimes you get tired, you want to rest. So there’s going to be one of the seats that’s available every 50 meters or so. So the infrastructure bid, if you’re based on the kind of framework and the kind of thinking, very well established, which means that it helps with persons with disability when they’re traveling around Singapore itself. From a tourism perspective, I’ve been in conversation with the tourism board as well, and they did try to get some feedback in terms of the 2040 strategy. So one of the pillars that they are actually looking at is that how can they better serve persons with disability? Or in a nutshell, it’s really how can we cater to inclusive tourism in that sense? So that, of course, will involve some form of policy changes, perhaps some form of support for businesses to be better able to adapt their businesses, maybe from an infrastructure perspective, from a staff training perspective, to actually cater to such a group of people. So I think it’s definitely in the works by the tourism board in terms of integrating all these things as part of the 2040 framework.

GARY BOWERMAN
Interesting. Just going back to the infrastructure and the transport that you mentioned, you mentioned the 50 meters wheelchair rule. Does that apply to all transport? Is that like airports, the metro?

YOCK SONG LAW
So it’s not just transport, but it’s like you think of it as when we’re walking around in attractions, you could walk for hundreds of meters and you have no seats at all. Based on the new requirements, they’re supposed to have a bench every 50 meters. No matter whether it’s for 2 % or 4%, just have a bench so that someone can rest and sit on it. And so that has that impact in terms of catering to someone, maybe a senior who doesn’t take a wheelchair, but just wants to have somewhere to sit on and just rest for a while before continuing on their journey. So these are the different little things that I would say. It may not be 100 % designed for just specifically for tourism, but it is actually designed for the fact that for better user experience, for more comfortable user experience, actually.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, so you’ve alluded to some of the work that you do. Your company is called Ludus Lab. That’s right. Why did you set it up? Tell us more.

YOCK SONG LAW
Well, so Ludus Lab itself, Ludus is actually a Latin word. It basically means being able to play or having fun. So when I was coming out with a name for the company, I was thinking, rather than naming ourselves after so-and-so travel company or tour company, why not just inject some fun into that? So hence, Ludus was created. And then the lab was added in because I think a lot of things that we’re doing is very experimental. There’s no other accessible travel-focused company in Singapore, nor is there one that’s a very prominent one that’s around Southeast Asia, for example. So I think there are really a lot of things that we could experiment on. We could play around with it and work with it. So in a way, when Lewis Lab was set up, it’s really trying to say, okay, what are the gaps? How can we plug it? And in the midst of trying to plug all these things, I realized that, well, actually what we’re trying to do is really all about powering inclusive adventures. so that people of all ages, everyone can travel, everyone can have fun in the process, can learn something in the process. But in order to power these inclusive adventures, we do need to do a few things. One is creating the right products that’s accessible for them. Two is that we want to work with the person with disability, but we do need access to them. We do need to understand what are their needs. Because I’ve actually hired them and let them conduct our tours at the Enabling Village itself. That provided the first-hand insights in terms of, okay, these are their needs. There are certain gaps in terms of getting them to be, for example, a guy. Because none of them are actually trained under the Singapore Tourism Board tourist guide license. So that means we need to run our own training. And in that process, I also realized that, well, actually, they themselves, as well as a lot of other persons with disability, they are actually very interested in the tourism sector, but they do not know how to get in there. Because there’s always that stigmatization that just because I’m differently abled, I’m not able to join the tourism sector. I’m not able to perform well in a frontline role. So that’s where we can come in and say, well, maybe we could give you some sort of training from communication, from soft skills. We can provide the insights or the first step into knowing what the tourism sector is about, whether it’s hospitality, a hotel, whether it’s from a tour guiding perspective. So that’s where instead of just trying to say, let’s do tours and experiences, we started to do training. And now we’re even trying to look at maybe we need some sort of certification for our attractions and experience provider so that they know what are the gaps in the shortfall that they have and that they can actually bridge it up as we try to move into a more inclusive tourism framework.

GARY BOWERMAN
I just want to track back on that because that’s fascinating. So you mentioned that there is no standardized tour guide certification for differently abled tour guides in Singapore. So you had to create your own. As you were putting that together, I mean, what did you learn? What did you learn about some of the challenges of tour guiding?

YOCK SONG LAW
That’s interesting because I had a conversation with the tourism board regarding licensing as well. Can we license for persons with disability to be a tour guide? And the response was that, actually, the regulations or the legislation do not stop a person with disability from being a tour guide. So the only restrictions are apparently because it’s because of how the current training providers, the schools, the way the assessment is being conducted, they will require you to do on-site as well as requiring to do on-coach. But if you’re a wheelchair user, it’s impossible for you to be doing it on -coach. That actually limits, right? what they can actually do and how that assessment is being done. So until I think we have sufficient demand of individuals with disability who wants to be a tour guide, I think I’m not going to fight that better and say, okay, let’s get the training skills or the schools that can actually run the tourist guide course to give that endorsement and to change their assessment topics or methodology to actually accommodate to this group of individuals. What I’ve learned is that there are still ways that we could own their skills or actually borrow their expertise. And this expertise lies in the form of many of them that we have engaged because they have actually acquired a form of disability. Some of them used to be really successful salespeople. Some of them used to be in the hospitality or frontline roles as well. And they had the natural skills in terms of communication, in terms of people management. And so it’s just a matter of putting them into the right role and letting them be able to shine in that position and to be a guide, for example, through our own trainings that we conduct for them. So you don’t really need to get a license for that purpose because they’re not going to be going around Singapore trying to do multi-site tours. But instead, we are very focused on a specific area when we’re doing that commentary. And we usually want to work together with a partner venue. So for example, Enabling Village is one. Another could be Gardens by the Bay, where we’re in discussion to say, how could we then work together with Gardens by the Bay to give that support and endorsement so that we don’t have to worry about the licensing part of things for them.

GARY BOWERMAN
This is still a new sector, a new segment developing in Singapore. A lot of your travellers are coming from overseas. What kind of feedback do you get from international travellers? Do you find that you learn about some of the services or the expectations that they have in their own countries? Do they find that Singapore is better prepared than they expected? What do you learn from your own clients?

YOCK SONG LAW
So I think what’s interesting is that first thing is that those that reach out to us, they were very grateful that we’ve got information for them, accessible related information, which to them has always been the biggest challenge because when you want to search accessible information in Singapore, you tend to get a very generic one. So they will say that, oh, a particular hotel is accessible. But what exactly do you mean by accessible, right? And so beyond the doors, beyond the basic things of getting into a room, that part is accessible. But what about within the room itself, right? An accessible traveler, typically, they want to make sure that or they prefer that, for example, the height of the bed. Whenever we look at it, when we go to a luxury hotel and we see a very high tall bed, that’s lovely and wonderful for us. But it’s a nightmare for someone on a wheelchair because they’re going to have difficulty transferring themselves onto a high bed. So actually, if a bed is of a certain height, low enough for them to transfer easily, that is one of those information they would like to have. Second thing is that when they go into the bathroom, for example, a lot of luxury hotels tend to not have a standing shower or roll-in showers. They have a bathtub, for example. And that’s a terrible nightmare because they can’t get in the bathtub. They need support to actually do that. Another thing is vanity sink, right? Vanity sink, usually you can have a very nice thick old wood, for example, as a cabinet below your sink, but that will actually restrict a wheelchair user from actually accessing the vanity sink itself. So these are the little details that through our own website that we’ve created, Accessible Singapore, it actually provides that basic level of information for these travelers based on the voluntary submission of information from hotels itself. And so that’s the first thing that they’re grateful for. In terms of standard, they say, honestly, Singapore is really very friendly. They don’t actually have too much difficulty moving around. In fact, I have travelers coming from the United States. They actually bring along their own portable ramp. So it’s a device that they can open up so that they can actually navigate between steps and everything, which they know that they definitely need it when they’re traveling around, for example, the States as well as in most parts of Europe and in Southeast Asia. In Singapore, they don’t actually need to even utilize that at all because we have all the right infrastructures to cater for that. So I think those are some of the feedback they’re getting and it basically showcases Singapore as a really accessible and inclusive travel destination, especially for those on wheelchairs, for example.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, so you’ve got to this point where you’ve learned a lot, you’ve worked on the certification, you’ve worked on the training, you’re starting to bring in travelers from around the world, you’re gaining advocacy. you’re getting sharing information about what you do. Where does it go next? You mentioned that you like to be experimental. What are some of the things that you’re looking at to take this forward?

YOCK SONG LAW
Yeah, so I think right now, the idea of a certification is really one of those things that we’re looking at. You know, the trouble is that I was just, you know, researching around and realized that there are standards in America, there’s standards in Europe. There’s just no one global standards. There’s ISO standards that the World Travel and Tourism Council has recommended, but it may not have the kind of granularity in terms of execution. So granularity, for example, we talk about, let’s say, an exhibition or a museum, and you have certain displays right now, which is actually designed for most of us as able individuals, and we are of a certain height, and walking through it, we can see all these labels. But if you’re a wheelchair user, there should be then certain recommendations in terms of a height stipulation, or even within an exhibition, a casing, what’s the kind of recommended height, etc. And these are not standards that have been implemented anywhere. From a certification perspective, I want to work towards that. I want to create and lay it basically on the best practices out there, lay it on the ISO standards and create some sort of certification standards that we can then roll it out to our own tourism stakeholders and then hopefully to roll out to the region as well eventually as everyone starts to embark on the road or journey of inclusive tourism. So that’s one. The second, which I feel is really about helping the person with disability to accomplish their dreams is being able to travel overseas. So I see it as trying to connect the dots to say that we don’t have to travel too far at this point. Can we do something as simple as Malaysia, right? And I start to realize it’s actually not as easy, even though I have all the connections and partners with the different DMCs or two operators, right? But none of them is able to handle wheelchair transfers, for example. Many of them, they do not have the right or proper transport vehicles. They can do that. It’s not a business that they’re really interested in because they felt that the market is really small. So it’s kind of difficult actually trying to find the right partners actually to connect the dots in a way so that people can continue to experience it. I was just recently trying to find guides in Penang because I’m actually bringing a group of PWDs, which comprises of those with physical disability on wheelchair, as well as the visually impaired to Penang in September for an event. And I was just trying to plan a one-day tour for them. And I have so much difficulty trying to find a tourist guide who’s willing to actually accommodate and host us. I think the first thing is that when they hear that you have such a diverse group, immediately they’re not available. They say, oh no, I’m not available. But actually, I believe they are available because I’m asking like more than one or two months in advance. It just so happened that I think the thought of such a diverse group with such a diverse profile, it makes people scared. So I’m trying to do a little bit of education and tell them, well, actually, you know, I just need more for the storytelling. I think in terms of handling them, you don’t really have to worry too much. I’ve already started my own wheelchair transport vehicle through basically networks and contacts. I said, I just need a guy who can tell the story and just be a little bit more empathetic. I think it’s actually good learning grounds for everyone. And who knows that if we could get the first trip out and started, we could actually do it as a regular series kind of tours for those with disability and wants to actually explore around the region.

GARY BOWERMAN
The challenges of making this scalable across the region, one, obviously infrastructure, readiness, but also mindset as well. And I think that’s what you’re saying, that it’s a combination of the two, right?

YOCK SONG LAW
It is, it is. And you can’t actually just have one and not the other because I think if someone has the right mindset, the right kind of service attitude, one thing to serve is growth individuals. But if your infrastructure doesn’t match up to it… It’s just impossible, right? So think of it as a hotel that has steps, right? How do you want to do it, right? To get people, someone on a wheelchair to go on board or for example, a ferry, right? I was taking a ferry ride just recently and I realized that to transport from the kind of boarding berth onto the ferry itself, right? It’s actually not as easy as what we imagine it to be that you don’t actually have the proper environment system to do that. One advantage is that if you have young and strong individuals, what they did, three of them, four of them, they just lift the entire wheelchair with the passenger inside and just lift them over and across onto the ship itself or the ferry itself. So that is possible. But if you don’t have the kind of manpower, but you just have the mindset or you don’t have the right infrastructure, it’s just not going to be that inclusive as well. And it spoils the whole experience, right? Because I think for a lot of those with disability when they’re traveling, they also want to have their dignity. They don’t want to be treated as a second-class citizen or an alternative, like alien citizens. They just want to be able to do things normally, like getting on board a ship just normally, things like that. And that’s what they’re looking for.

GARY BOWERMAN
Looking at it from the travel industry side, when somebody is pushing and developing and, as you say, experimenting with a new segment, the industry, obviously, the attention pricks up. People get curious. perhaps a little bit envious, perhaps they want to learn from you. What kind of feedback do you get from the industry? Do you find that people are actually buying into this idea that it is the way forward?

YOCK SONG LAW
I think people are interested, but I think there’s also a lot of misconceptions that they actually have. I think the first thing is that every time we talk about accessible tourism, the first thing that comes to mind is wheelchair users. But the reality is that actually the term accessible is a lot broader. There’s actually a lot of disabilities which are actually invisible, right? So for example, someone who’s hard of hearing, someone who’s visually impaired, they may look normal, but they actually have some form of disability and may not be able to totally enjoy that kind of services. So a lot of times when people say, oh, you know, or like they can say that, oh, we are able to actually handle which are users, that means we’re accessible. Well, to some extent, yes, you are. But it doesn’t mean that you can’t handle someone who is visually impaired or someone who is hearing impaired because your staff is not trained for it or your infrastructure or your exhibitions, for example, is not able to cater for that. So I think that’s really one of those first things that I would say a lot of businesses, they struggle a little bit with such misconception. The other thing is that a lot of them thought that if they’re not able to cater to those with wheelchair, they can’t be an accessible business at all. But again, it’s not true because the reality is that what is accessible for one person may not be for another. In fact, there’s no businesses out there that’s 100 % accessible. And I can attest to that because when we started, when I built my website, I was kind of like very hopeful and said, oh, you know, I think it’s like I could do a tool that’s 100 % accessible, right? I could do for wheelchair users. I could do for someone who’s hearing impaired. I could do for someone who’s visually impaired as well. And that’s when I realized that actually, if I’m… As a tool, yeah, I can run it, right? But if you really want to ensure that you get a good experience, right, for someone who’s actually visually impaired, how you conduct that tool is very different from how you want to conduct for a wheelchair user because they can’t see. So everything depends on your storytelling. How are you describing the surrounding? They have to invoke the other sensory aspect. They need a lot more touch and the other senses, right, to actually make this tool meaningful for them. Otherwise, there’s no difference for them in terms of listening to a podcast like ours because they can hear everything, right? But there’s nothing sensory for them to actually retain that memory and make it memorable for them. So in fact, one of these encounters with someone whose vision impact was that I brought them to Sentosa. She was traveling with her partner, who’s actually someone on wheelchair. And they actually went to the Madame Tussauds at Sentosa. And there were a few other places that she visited. Interesting thing was that she said the most memorable experience for her was actually the Madame Tussauds. And I was surprised because you can’t see anything, right? Because rightfully, when you think of Madame Tussauds, it’s like you are looking at taking photographs with celebrity, with wax icons. But she said, oh, that’s because when I’m traveling with my partner, he was actually describing to me, like, for example, oh, this is the statue of Taylor Swift and that you can actually make such a post, and that he’s actually able to actually articulate out all these things for her. And so to her, she said, this was actually the best experience because it’s traveling with a loved one, and she knows that even though she can’t see, but she can imagine what it’s like. And that’s the difficult part, like when we’re trying to do accessible or inclusive products, right? What works for one may not work for the other. So you really do need to customize for each of them. So to go back to this point is that the businesses itself, they may not be able to accommodate to a wheelchair user. Let’s say you’re one of those old heritage buildings, whether it’s Malaysia or Singapore, a shop house, but you can actually cater for those on the other spectrum. It could be someone on the autism spectrum. It could be someone who’s visually impaired through your kind of programming. So that makes you accessible as well, not necessarily just because you lack the physical infrastructure and you can’t be accessible. So I think those are… Those are, I think, my two takeaways that whenever I talk with tourism businesses, they tend to have certain misconceptions. And of course, the third one is that they will always say it’s expensive to make some of the hardware or infrastructure changes. But again, going back to my second point, which is you can still create experiences without touching anything physical about your space, and you can still cater for them.

GARY BOWERMAN
And so I understand how quickly these conversations move on. For listeners around the world, the last time you and I spoke in detail was at ITB Asia in Singapore, which is, what, about 10 months ago? If we look forward, we’ve only got a couple of minutes before we finish, but if we look forward, if we were having this conversation in 12 months’ time, what do you think would be a couple of the top topics we’d be talking about?

YOCK SONG LAW
Well, I hope I can share a little bit more about… how some of the talks or the paperwork, the plans that we have has been materialized and we are able to actually do, I would say, more action. So from talks to action, essentially. So for example, I’m talking to Gardens by the Bay. So disability to be deployed as docent guides. I hope that this will be one of those things that we can share in 12 months’ time about one of those interesting projects that we’ve done. I think the second thing is that you know, we’ve been talking about how I want to send my group of persons with disabilities overseas. So I do hope that in 12 months’ time, I can actually share and talk about all these things and say, well, you know, we discovered that there’s a destination that’s outside of Singapore that’s really accessible and welcoming to a group of wheelchair users as well as those on the disability spectrum. And that they actually had a great time of it and we are able to run it as a regular product and we’re getting such a good demand for it. Not just from Singapore, but… we could actually look at potentially international travelers coming from the States or Europe coming to Singapore as a first stop and then connecting to our regional travel. So that’s how I look at, hopefully in 12 months’ time, we can actually string together different partners in the region that can actually cater to those persons with disability. And I think that will be something interesting to actually talk about after that.

GARY BOWERMAN
Okay, so we’ll pencil that in for 12 months’ time. I look forward to it. Thank you so much for sharing your insights today on the High-Yield Tourism podcast about your work in accessible and inclusive travel in Singapore. We wish you the very best of luck for the next 12 months. All right. Thank you, Gary. You can join the conversation on our LinkedIn page, as always, at High-Yield Tourism. That’s got a hyphen in it, at high-yield tourism. And you can visit our website, highyieldtourism.com. We’ll be back soon to talk more High-Yield Tourism. See you next time.